when we talk about economic development or prospects on this show we typically talk about debt about private sector innovation we talk about monetary policy probably much of the time we talk about fiscal policy we don't often on this show talk about economic prosperity is primarily a function of political institutions but that's what our next guest thinks is the most crucial maybe we have it all wrong here at least if you believe political institutions play the role that james robinson does his research are a comparative economic and political development is the david lawrence professor of government at harvard university and is author of the book why nations fail so thank you for being on the show works i didn't have you wanted to talk about things from this perspective but my pleasure when i was in the yes so what role do

political institutions in your view play in economic growth why are they so crucial and why is this distinction between inclusive and extracted so crucial well let me let me start by saying that everything you mentioned before was absolutely really important you know integration what could be more important innovation called true because school policy that's absolutely important but the thing is that none of that stuff comes in a vacuum but you know policy is an outcome of the political process and innovation and innovation in society you know which is fundamentally the thing which makes united states so dynamic canonically and it's been the world technology leader for one hundred fifty years when the hundred eighty years but also it's not a coincidence it's not a current since one some countries are more innovative in others and that's to do at some level let's do a very kind of basic stuff about people's incentives and opportunities and societies but our view is that you know where it why is it that some societies wise

it was the united states has more opportunities and more incentives for people to innovate why does it have better monetary fiscal policy you're going to tell me how it was a good school. but big picture. here. so i'm just kind of saying like. so we want to ask you know what lies behind that you know why use that as more innovation in the united states than there is in colombia or is it in congo. about what lies behind it and that's really the rules in society what we call the institutions that structure peoples and so on and some opportunities but those rules themselves are chosen by the political system by political power is. fundamentally take those things that you mentioned and go back and ask why it is that very word of those things vary so much round the world it's to do with politics ok so then when we talk about the u.s.

politics and you're saying that essentially the u.s. is what you are likely describe as as inclusive in its political institutions is it becoming less so in the united states because you mentioned kind of the long trajectory of growth and innovation over one hundred fifty years but over the last thirty we've seen wages really stagnate we've seen that culminate on the streets and occupy wall street we've seen big banks extract from the economy and be bailed out so is this kind of inclusive structure is this being a road it. i think that's potentially the case i mean i'm much you know in the book we are rather optimistic about the united states i mean i you know i'm you know in the sense that we kind of emphasize that you know if you look at the americas for example you look at the difference between a latin american country like argentina or the knighted states the differences between those two places in the way they get they got organized happens sort of historically a long time ago you know in the colonial period where very different types of societies emerged in north and south america and once that sort of society gets set

up in a particular way you know in the u.s. we characterize this is an inclusive society then there's lots of sort of feedback loops that tend to keep it inclusive so in the book we're very optimistic we kind of talk about the gilded age in the robber barons and how in the late nineteenth century there was this enormous increase in inequality in the united states and rockefeller and vanderbilt and carney you know all these people they wanted to capture the political system and they wanted to create a very different type of society but they weren't able to and i you know you could look at the thirty's and see the same thing so i would say you know that people are right to be concerned about this that there's been the very large increase in inequality you know there's economic growth which has been spilt down the income distribution you know there's all this evidence and capture of politics but i look around and i look at most of the private sector you know outside the financial sector i still see i don't see in all of our colleagues private sector like you see in mexico or argentina or colombia you know this is not

a country full of monopolists a monopoly set free and free that capital available this fall apart this enormous innovation and biotech in i.t. and so i still see the kind of innovation machine going in the u.s. and i think but of course that's tough to be worried about and i think people are worried about it people are conscious of it and i think that's very healthy so i'm not not i'm still a kind of i still kind of having a freight and. u.s. system but it can the political system can kind of bounce back and just as it did in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century i think what's interesting is you qualify the financial sector you kind of exclude it from the other sectors that you were talking about i want to ask you about that because the sign when you talk about the robber barons they were monopolistic but you could argue hey at least they were creating something they've got railroads they built things that the economy that the country needed now you have big huge banks these two big to fail banks that are extracting wealth you could argue as opposed to financing the

economy and financing production financing these businesses and the engine of growth what you have them doing is financing speculation and they're doing this with cheap money from the fed they're benefiting from an implicit bailout guaranteed by the government so how do you and your framework analyze the impact on a society of an extract not political institution but banking system yeah i mean i think that's i mean are you i agree with a lot of what you say i mean i do i mean i think it's i mean i think financial set financial system is crucial for successful economic development you know you need a financial system to channel credit wealth to people with good ideas but no capital so so you know one can have integration in the financial system as well but i completely agree with you and you know in some sense the financial system bounced out of recession in even worse shape because it's even more concentrated than it was before you know because of all these things going on but i would so you know

the political system has to get that under control but there's lots of you know there's lots of ways not to do so for example this business so if you think about it is an example you know if you think about the problem is fundamentally political but the problem is that the financial sector because it has so many connections in washington or because it's too big to fail is too powerful too powerful politically and regulation is not the obvious solution to that because regulation can be captured. to intervene to try to undermine the political influence of the financial sector and how that's being exercised so you know there are some important lessons for thinking about the politics of this which are contrary to a lot of the discussion you know regulation won't work with those so powerful you know they capture the regulators all they get to write the regulation so so i yes i mean i support once a political problem but needs to be. solved and i don't think it has been solved by

any stretch of the imagination so then would you see kind of the key to protecting the political institutions that you think have been responsible for u.s. innovation are reigning in the employment of entrenched interests in politics because it's not just to big to fail banks you have the insurance sector which heavily lobbied for obamacare and essentially you have americans needing to buy insurance it didn't rain in medical costs you have the military industrial complex you have any number of multinational corporations in fact some c.e.o.'s are meeting with obama right now on the fiscal cliff so would you name that's the end of the key thing and protecting the sanctity of political institutions here i think so but you know i'm i'm an outsider you know and i'm british you know and i tend to think for us to mock receive is still being pretty vibrant you know that's a very nice study which i like very much about dick cheney. on the columbia business school. he wrote a famous study about president suharto in indonesia. when president soeharto started having heart attacks share prices of homes you know started tanking because

the only reason they made profits was because of their connections to president suharto and he did the same exercise with dick cheney and when you have when dick cheney had a heart attack absolutely nothing happened with the price of the share price. and i think that's very significant because it shows that politics in the u.s. is not as captured those people might think you know people make these comparisons to third world countries but it's not that i. but yes people that's not the right people should be concerned about you know i would wonder what would happen if and i this is a horrible thing to say i would never wish this upon ben bernanke i wonder what would happen if he had a heart attack what would happen to the blood pressure of the the c.e.o.'s of major banks but we're going to talk more about this in an international context in just a minute and we're going to go to break but we'll have more with james robert robinson researcher of comparative economic and political development professor at harvard author of why nations fail in just one minute also still ahead the

district's voiced concern over the u.s. fiscal cliff in the beige book but what exactly is the beige book anyway we'll break it down award of the day and show you our best hope for talk space in loose change but first your closing market numbers. the great russian warriors. prevailing over houses and asperity. to reunite at the parade soon as. they complete that story on.

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other for children.

all right we're talking to james robinson author of why nations fail before the break we were talking about the role of political institutions in the u.s. in terms of innovation economic growth and development now let's look at a little bit more broadly at some other regions of the world so professor robinson i do want to really quickly before i get go more global i want to ask what you think the fiscal cliff is symptomatic of because this is probably capturing the country in terms of symbolic of government dysfunction in the u.s. what do you think it symptomatic of in your view. i mean i i mean i don't want to belittle the problem of the school but i guess i would say you know it's a sort of game of chicken you know that people want to settle the problem different you know the republicans would like you know would like such a one way the democrats would like to kind of in another way and i guess i would sort of you know it's symptomatic of a particular type of political gridlock at the moment in the united states which is

it could you know because of changes in the policies of the different parties but i you know i don't i mean i don't want to belittle that as a problem but i guess i would sort of say you know this is all relative to the big picture about you know why things you know work and the way they do in the united states so i would guess that the politicians will you know they'll sort of. pressure on them to come to a reasonable agreement as a writer when you look at such a big scope of history. yeah yeah i hear you but you know i spend most of my time studying places like haiti your colombia all the congo and you know kind of point of view point of view of our theory you know the united states is a terribly well functioning society ok all right i'll give you that i thought i could take it quite regularly. but let me know ok it's nice to the optimism here let's look a little bit more globally then i want to ask you to apply your view your lens to a country that has kind of disparate results based on region so looking somewhere

like italy where the north is quite productive the south isn't there the same country same political institutions how do you describe something like that has somewhat attribute those differences to things like geography well like you know i mean. same political institutions at some level but the way the institutions work depends on their interaction with many other things in society you know people say you know you ok the legal system is the same italy but the way the legal system functions in the south of the city is completely different because you have the mafia if you want to think about the institutions that it's really you have to think you have to go back and think historically about the fact that in the south of italy the state historically was very weak it was very different it formed in a very different way from the north of italy because the state was very weak in the south of this really these massive appeared to enforce contracts secure property rights and those mafias became ingrained in the system it's very much like

a country i study myself a lot which is colombia you know half of colombia is run by you know groups mass you know our military rulers you know who are the state and local level and that's kind of the extractive force so then let me ask you one other question let me ask about that the resources that some people look great to analyze a nation's economic prosperity or plants looking at it somewhere like saudi arabia would you say that their their economic fortune has been driven by society and political institutions because look at them producing ten million barrels of oil a day i would say come on it's good you got to look at a lawyer right yeah i mean i you know i think i think a little simpleton but i think it's also very important think about you know what was society like in saudi arabia when oil you know was sort of discovered and the fact is that you know saudi arabia was a very you know it was a tribal society without strong kind of centralized they will follow it see you know if you go back to one hundred twenty one like in first season i was in abu

dhabi giving some lectures in naples you know the shaker i would dance you know in the night and sixty's and have electricity in an hour you know i mean these were very poor kind of underdeveloped countries with very traditional political and social structures and then they just discovered this in the. most part in the well so you could you find look at saudi arabia you could say well you know that this is an absolute this morning key and things like that well you know but it was not a salute to small to be without oil in one hundred twenty and now it's not salutes it's monkey with the world in much most roads and things like that so you know i don't think oil because of oil hasn't helped the most annoying is will change the society you know you could say it kind of truck the society in some kind of suspended animation but i don't think the society was not created boy. if you want me interested yeah it's interesting to talk to i really appreciate you being here today we're going to leave it there that's all we have time for but that was james robinson is researcher of comparative economic and political development harvard professor author of why nations fail thank you very much.

all right it's time now for word of the day where we break in a financial term or concept for our smart viewer but just not the expert and today it is good beige book given the federal reserve released it now it sounds like a bit of a yawn but it certainly has jim cramer excited take it take a listen people constantly underrates reports that the fed puts out i scrutinize every single one and actually go to all the websites of the regional reports of the regional banks. but he always sounds excited so what does it exactly see if you get excited it's a survey of the economic conditions in each of the twelve federal reserve banking districts it's also known as these summary of commentary on current economic conditions by federal reserve districts so i guess beige book is a little more concise now it's published eight times per year two weeks before each

of the eight annual federal open market committee meetings now the report contains several sections of maine some rain followed by the breakdown of the twelve federal districts now each district report will highlight the region's major industries so not all the reports mention the same sectors in the atlanta region for example there is a particular focus on tourism of course you have florida there where as the energy industry is highlighted somewhere like dallas and kansas city and that region you'll hear a lot about farming so staffers at each of the twelve regional banks all these banks you see here they compile the information after contacting businesses economists and other financial experts by phone through questionnaires and just plain old e-mail now the businesses range from retailers and home builders to hotels and restaurant owners and the questions if you want to know what they call up and ask here are some examples from the atlanta fed that we've got so please describe the proportion of your workforce that's part time or temporary compared to

this time last year what's your outlook for growth in your business over the next three to six months now the fed staff produces a number of books for the f o m c that are known by color so you know it's not just the beige book the beige book was originally the red book and the red book discuss specific companies and it actually wasn't made made available to the public so i wonder about dole down when i went to beijing but regardless it was made in an agreement with congress members who wanted more fed openness and the fed publicly released the report in one thousand nine hundred three change the color and the name now f o m c members also receive a book and this was first produced in two thousand and ten to put together the blue and green books and these provide international economic an hour. also monetary policy alternatives and these books are released to the public not for five years and i should note even though these books sound colorful they are not take that metaphorically as you will also the findings in the beige book are anecdotal there are no numbers for example today's beige book announced among key sectors consumer

spending grew at a moderate pace in most districts wall manufacturing weakened now many people analyze the reports in detail scrutinizing changes in verbiage shut says this john carney was asking what is the beige book change from moderate to modest growth mean which is why to effectively read the beige book and many other fed statements you must become accustomed to bed speak or measured remarks designed not to reveal much information which former fed chairman alan greenspan was famous for. i wouldn't. syntax to structure. the sound and i were answering the question but in fact had not. so clever that everyone talks about it now now there isn't any new imperial data or statistics released in the beige book it's mostly a chance for investors to see how the fed thinks and makes conclusions from anecdotal data and surveys but now you know what the beige book is.

let's wrap up with loose change dimitri thank you for being in the hot seat to talk about something that really i think i need to add to my christmas list so we've heard some americans getting a bit nutty about botox remember that mom who gave her eight year old injections. she started giving the injections to keep up with the beauty take all world of the pageant circuit an idea she says was planted by other pageant moms. ok now that is terrifying but botox is getting creative not just with with young folks which is horrible but some poker players are getting poker talks so i think it's

a manhattan dr is offering poker talk so that these players can keep their poker face without giving away any facial expressions i ask why limit this to poker players i can see bankers politician a business men lining up for this i want to line up for this ok i would love to not reveal what i'm thinking with my facial expressions for the paragraph where you just said a word of the day who better to get it than a central banker yes. talk about. botox yes what we call that i don't know but i can imagine greenspan going before congress and in addition to his destructive syntax also having botox his face yeah so you can even tell a thing i've been going to pretty much has that call he was out only i don't really have all of our talks either that or he'll hear what did he not giving away any excuse to try to i mean you could tell when he gets angry but it's because of the

so a lie this is actually more i think a credit to human beings abilities that they take the smallest change of facial features because when he gets angry you get you can't even really discern it you have to go up to a monitor because see a little bit there maybe they're going to get that it's spatial expression or i think it may be just his morally. sparrow you're getting really good at this bed speak to me you can tell ben bernanke is all right here can't tell if he's thinking votes ironic though you know because ben bernanke you said that he wanted to have a more open federal reserve when he came in after greenspan and in many ways he's actually more closed off i mean greenspan was like human there was a human element a greenspan there was a narcissism there was a humanity but bernanke is like an empty suit yeah the guy is completely monotone spiritually not just you know. his verbiage it was a little bit you know i don't want to beat up on but he's you know i'm sure as a nice guy i don't know i don't think you yeah well i don't know if he's a nice guy don't think i have enough poker talks is going on my christmas list for

sure so you'll know when you see it i mean i think. that for now let's move on because president obama could have a secret weapon to help the u.s. avoid feeling the effects of a connery at which is what we're calling the fiscal cliff it was renamed by one of the oh and it is us treasury secretary timothy geithner. different think doesn't work and we've had several periods now where there was a choice made to defer. this political system again. with all the to secure america besides the for again in the hopes that americans give us more time to come together i think you. mistake. i think timothy geitner could use some poker talks he was hardcore on the furrow but having to stick to the gutter has to speak no one that's what i was just liking. to defer will so be it with the president i know i think yeah not

a good idea well turbo tax what he. what he can do if he so chooses if it comes to this if the president and congress fail to come to an agreement is he can evidently affect what is withheld from people's paychecks you know even if we go off the fiscal cliff of a deadly timothy geitner can say oh you know what don't withhold is much from their paychecks as these tax cuts that just expired would have us typically do but he doesn't want you don't you know this is interesting because it's a star and i just have to say that this is an example given is like a look we're not totally in trouble if the u.s. goes off the fiscal cliff i think we are in trouble if the treasury secretary says this much authority over what's withheld from i going to the treasury this is the first we'll close all if you want to like it's like turning your watch back two hours and you wake up in the morning oh my god only one point by half an hour oh wait nevermind i move my clock back two hours like this guys always have emergency

parachute after a very light evening your first call but will no like for school like i don't know reverse daylight savings are going to soon in perth i mean lauren all right we have achieved about our facebook page don't forget the facebook page guys ok why do you like me. because that is all we have time for thanks for watching come back tomorrow in the meantime you can follow me on twitter at lauren lester and you can go to our facebook page dmitri just told you to you can watch us on you tube you can yes and it's on hulu and you can have a great night. you .

get off sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. wealthy british style sign. on the title of. the. markets why not come to find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cars or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines and to cause

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